LanguageCRap

<spectre> i'm interested in solving problems i can solve
<spectre> e.g. what people are saying in other languages
<Ulti> no I am interested in representing life and therefore intelligence and language
<spectre> i'm decoding their thoughtz
<Ulti> haha no
<spectre> yes
      ^-DONT FORGET THIS BIT SPECTRE, YOU KNOW THE START OF IT! ;P -^
<spectre> their thoughtz as expressed by words
<Ulti> I dont think in language all of the time
<spectre> but when you write your thoughts down you do
<Ulti> I can't even describe how I can think of a new tune, I can't even play it on a keyboard but I can whistle it
<spectre> thats because your musically illiterate
<Ulti> everyone is thought illiterate
<spectre> nope
<Ulti> yes
<spectre> i'm writing down my thoughts right now
<spectre> on this internet device
<Ulti> that is what your conscious mind is 
<spectre> yes
<spectre> now i'm watching a south park
<spectre> so neh
<Ulti> yes and what is happening between all that
<spectre> nothing
<Ulti> hahahahahaha
<Ulti> ACES
<Ulti> see: thought illiterate
<Ulti> your conscious mind is just the poop you can think about 
<spectre> haha no
<Ulti> the rest is thought with no form
<Ulti> see: intuition
<Ulti> how do I express that with language
<Ulti> that I am right but with no expressable reason
<spectre> you just did it
<Ulti> spoken language is a device to fill the gap between us evolving to have MIND POWERS
<Ulti> no I didnt
<spectre> yes you did
<spectre> i understand what you meant
<Ulti> I described what that thing is not the specific instance of it happening
<spectre> you expressed your thoughts with language
<spectre> abstracting is one human trait Ulti 
<Ulti> because I can't even comprehend what intuition is I can just use it
<Ulti> spectre, the fact that you dont understand what I am getting at right now shows the limitation of language
<spectre> i can
<Ulti> worse is I don't know the language inately so I can think of something but not have the words to express it until I learn them... that proves that thought != language
<Ulti> I can think of stuff right now that words dont exist to describe it
<Ulti> not fully anway
<spectre> i didn't say thoughts are language
<spectre> i'm saying that language expresses thoughts
<spectre> which is true
<spectre> the fact that we are having this "conversation" or "thought exchange" proves me right
<Ulti> most of the time it is used to expresses the real world not thought
<spectre> citation please
<Ulti> I'm sure you could look at a dictionary for your citation
<spectre> no
<spectre> <Ulti> most of the time it is used to expresses the real world not thought
<spectre> that is something that can be empirically tested
<Ulti> how many words are to do with describing thought and how many are to do with describing the world
<spectre> it would be possible to do frequency counts
<Ulti> yup
<spectre> of how many times people describe the world
<Ulti> do it
<spectre> and how many times people describe their thoughts
<spectre> in a day
<spectre> the research has probably already been done
<spectre> you were the one making the (baseless) statement
<spectre> so find some research to back it up
<Ulti> they might be thinking about the world but they are still describing the world not the process of thought or how they are thinking or what their impression and emotion was whilst they are saying what they think of the world
<Ulti> if we had words with lots of dual meanings
<Ulti> so mountain but with like a million variations of what we thought of mountain as we describe it then I would believe you more
<spectre> 1 word != 1 thought
<Ulti> sure we have adjectives but they dont work in the same way
<spectre> i never said that
<Ulti> neither did I
<spectre> my statement was
<spectre> language expresses thoughts
<Ulti> when I think steep mountain there is thought behind each word that is not expressed by the words on their own or by the phrase
<spectre> and you have not disproven that or really argued against it
<spectre> you're arguing around the point
<Ulti> no that is my point
<spectre> i'm not interested in arguing your philosophy
<Ulti> I have described a steep mountain by saying "steep mountain" but when I thought about it in my mind before saying it I have thoughts of the last time I walked up a mountain
<spectre> http://host.uniroma3.it/progetti/kant/field/latbiblio.htm
<Ulti> a sense of the smell and sounds with that
<spectre> enjoy this anotated bibliography
<Ulti> yeah because anyone saying shit about thought must be true
<spectre> i didn't say that
<Ulti> I can tell you now that how I use language really doesnt have much relation to my thought process
<Ulti> perhaps everyone else is different :/
<spectre> you are poorly placed to decide that
<Ulti> what poorly placed by being inside my mind?
<Ulti> WHAT
<spectre> you are a user 
<spectre> not an engineer or scientist
<spectre> of language or the mind
<Ulti> people used to think that language was that powerful it is just a modern interpretation of a long standing myth
<Ulti> like the true name of things having magical powers
<spectre> language isn't magical
<spectre> it is a biological process
<spectre> like any other thing to do with humans
<spectre> the fact that it isn't adequately explained yet is because of our ignorance, not of some kind of "mystical powaz"
<Ulti> for one thing your amazing plan would mean that any languages that have semantic differences would involve those population having difference in thought
<Ulti> which I think is most probably BS
<Ulti> im sure there are plenty of languages where I can't say something they can
<spectre> no
<Ulti> but I sure as hell can think about it
<spectre> no there isn't
<spectre> all human languages
<spectre> are equally as expressive
<spectre> jeez
<spectre> this is first grade stuff
<Ulti> not if you dont have a noun
<spectre> you just used a snowclone
<Ulti> that is why you borrow nouns
<spectre> nouns are an open category
<Ulti> hahaha
<spectre> yeah and eskimos have 1000 words for snow
<Ulti> nice save
<Ulti> no they have 1000 words for white and snow since they dont make the destinction
<spectre> no
<spectre> they have about the same number of words for snow as we do
<spectre> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow
<Ulti> they have nouns which express the position of the sun over the horizon glazing the snow to make specific light conditions in like one word
<Ulti> see white and snow
<spectre> Ulti, citation please
<Ulti> go look one up I WATCHED TV ABOUT IT
<Ulti> and or read it somewhere
<spectre> and you'd trust what the TV says about SCIENCE without reading the research
<spectre> jeez
<spectre> some kind of scientist you are
<Ulti> IT CAME OUT OF MY MIND SPECTRE I DONT KNOW HOW AND LACK THE WORDS TO DESCRIBE IT
<spectre> you didn't even read that page
<spectre> detailing that there isn't just one eskimo language 
<spectre> :/
<spectre> now i'm watching southpark
<spectre> as you aren't interested in having a scientific discussion!
<Ulti> spectre, your argument is like how computer science dudes say LOGIC IS AWESOME WE CAN DO ANYTHING, and then everyone just ignores Gödel's incompleteness theorem
<Ulti> no I'm not I'm watching Dexter
<Ulti> also you dont care because you are an artist reading papers by artists :P OWND
<spectre> 1) incorrect
<spectre> 2) incorrect
<spectre> i have never stated that machine translation is the answer to life
<spectre> i stated that machine translation allows me to understand other peoples thoughts as expressed through language
<spectre> Ulti, you argue like a politician :(
<Ulti> also you know its true YOU KNOW IT AND HATE IT SPECTRE your life is a dichotomy of rational, with what you know through intuition and meditation, and what you know through learned and reinforced experience
<Ulti> no it allows you to understand what they said
<Ulti> not what they thought
<Ulti> if you think the two are even remotely the same you are nuts
<Ulti> even when I speak fluently without rehearsing you aren't getting the whole mental deal with just my words 
<spectre>  other peoples thoughts as expressed through language = "what they said"
<Ulti> with tone of voice body language etc. you get a bit more
<spectre> only i said it more explicitly
<Ulti> but the only way you are going to get my thought is if you directly get my thought
<Ulti> spectre, lololol
<Ulti> LIES
<Ulti> also spectre you are rubs
<spectre> no you are
<Ulti> I SAID DICHOTOMY THAT SHIT IS AWESOME
<Ulti> see you didnt get what I was thinking by saying that
<Ulti> I was like "hurf durf I can get dichotomy in that OH THERE IT IS CHECK THAT SHIT!!!! yeah next word...."
<spectre> hahahaha